Brother UK Cycling Podcast – Episode 55
Timothy John
“Hello and welcome to this special edition of the Brother UK Cycling Podcast, with me Timothy John and special guest, Andy Hawes, the Route Director of the Tours of Britain. Andy, thank you very much indeed for joining me today.”
Andy Hawes
“My pleasure, Timothy. It’s good to be back on the show again.”
Timothy John
“Well, to say that you have had a busy schedule would be something of an understatement, so we are hugely grateful that you’ve managed to squeeze us in.
June 6 and runs over four stages, ending in Greater Manchester on Sunday June 9.
“Ten weeks, Andy, to put together a four-stage race. Just how busy have you been?”
Andy Hawes
“I guess it’s fair to say I’ve been reasonably busy. I've spent a lot of time on the road. It’s been a labour of love. When you look back and say, ‘ten weeks,’ it really does make you look back and reflect on what have achieved.
four stages that we have are four very, very unique and individual stages, so, yeah, really excited about it.”
Timothy John
“Well, we’re going to go into those four stages in depth in the course of the next half-an-hour or so, but just to stick with this theme of deadlines, the last time we spoke, last year, you were absolutely up to your eyes in it at the Cycling World Championships in Glasgow.
“I know you’re a man who likes a deadline, but has this been the tightest you’ve ever faced?”
Andy Hawes
“I think for a race in its entirety, absolutely, yes. Turning individual stages around, I think we’ve done one in about nine weeks before now. That’s just one individual stage. That’s probably the shortest amount of time in which we’ve ever done one, but to turn around a whole four-stage race in ten weeks, and some of these stages are very, very complex.
stages. It’s not just a simple, ‘We’re dealing with…’ say, for example, Powys. You’re dealing with Powys, Denbighshire Gwynedd and Conwy, and that’s just on stage one.
“It’s been a challenge. Working on the Worlds has stood me in good stead for having many balls in the air and juggling at the same time, but it’s been great, and all the local authorities we’ve dealt with, across from stage one all the way through to stage four, have just been so happy and so pleased to work with us, and [so pleased] that the Tour of Britain Women’s race is happening. That also makes things a lot easier.”
Timothy John
“And how valuable have those relationships, which you’ve built up over years, proved to be when you’re operating to such a tight deadline? Welshpool was in the race back in 2022. Warrington was in the men’s Tour in 2021.
“Has it been valuable to touch base with a network of established contacts?”
Andy Hawes
“Absolutely. It makes it a lot easier. Taking the race to a local authority or to a region that’s never had a professional bike race before is a daunting process for them because they don’t really understand what’s involved until maybe two or three months down the line with the processes. Maybe they’ve seen some racing on the TV and understand what it is.
“So, 10 weeks ago, to sit down in front of people who we have a long-standing relationship with has really helped, because they understand how a bike race works and moves.
“As much as it’s moved to British Cycling Events, which is the company behind the new Tour of Britain Women, for local authorities knowing that some of the key people who are going to be involved with the routes, the starts and the finishes, are also key people who have been involved in this event for many, many years is also a comfort to those guys. So, yeah, it’s been great. It’s almost like we’ve picked up where we left off with some relationships.
“The Tour of Britain was in Wrexham last year, so those relationships were still very fresh, but, as you mentioned, the Tour of Britain in Warrington in 2021, they have the third stage of [this year’s] Tour of Britain Women, so it was good and exciting to see that it was still the same people there from three years ago, and, to a degree, we can run out the same plans that we had back in 2021.
everybody’s lives a little bit easier.”
Timothy John
“Yeah, and especially, as I keep on saying, when working to such a tight deadline, you can’t overstate the value of long-term relationships.
Duncan Street of the National Escort Group. I know that’s previously been your working method.
“Has there been time to do that this year?”
Andy Hawes
“Yes. One of the things we’ve said is that, yes, there is only ten weeks to do this, but we are not compromising on safety, and we’re not compromising on how we would have planned this if we’d had 12 months or 18 months to plan it. We have done three full route recons as we always would.
work, so we made some changes on the ground.
“Then a few weeks later, we were back out onto the routes. We did the second route recon. That’s when we started to look at the specific sporting points. Where are the sprints going to be? Where are the Queen of the Mountains going to be? And then, literally, just a handful of weeks ago, we did our final route recon.
event now, we’ll see shining through as has always been the case.”
INTERLUDE
Timothy John
“Well, let’s not squander this opportunity to talk to the Route Director. Let’s get into detail now on the four stages of this route, and, as I mentioned, a Grand Départ in mid-Wales.
“This race starts on Thursday June 6 in Welshpool with 142.5km stage to Llandudno, loaded with 2276m of climbing. This is a beast of an opening stage.
“Welshpool, as Andy said, is no stranger to hosting major bike races. It was a finish town in 2022 for the Women’s Tour in a stage won in a sprint by Grace Brown, and in the press release - Andy, you’ll be able to add to this - it’s described as a formidably challenging opening stage, one with one sprint point and two QOMs.
“The first QOM comes after 65km, that’s the Llandyrnog climb - I’m sure I’ve mangled the pronunciation - also known as the Berwyn Pass, six kilometres at 5.4 per cent, and a second QOM comes within a series of punchy climbs with 10km to go. These are likely to whittle down the bunch as it enters Llandudno, and the finish will take the riders past Conwy Castle for a ’spectacular finish’ on the promenade.
“Andy, you’ve started this race with the very hardest stage. What impact might that have on the final outcome?”
Andy Hawes
“When you look on paper, and you look at where Welshpool and Llandudno are situated, that clichéd saying of, ‘You can’t make an omelette without breaking eggs,’ comes to mind. You can’t get to Llandudno from Welshpool without going through some serious climbs!
stages go, it’s a fantastic one. It really is going to set the scene on day one.
“We’re really excited about this stage. The views from just about every corner you turn, there’s a whole different view, and even from the final QOM, you can look across and see the top of Snowdon on a clear day, right in the centre of Snowdon National Park.
“So, yeah, it’s great. Some of the roads we’ve used before in previous editions of the Tours of Britain, men and women, there are some very familiar roads; in fact, the first handful of kilometres on this stage will be familiar to the women who were involved back in 2022, because they were the dying kilometres of that stage; we’re just running them in the opposite direction.
shine.
“And, as you say, the dying kilometres, you just need to look at the profile. It’s just undulating, right up until maybe five kilometres to go before they drop down and finish on the promenade in Llandudno.
“Yeah, whoever goes across the line there on Thursday June 6, and crosses that line first, it’s going to be well deserved.”
Timothy John
“I gave the blunt facts of this climb, the Berwyn Pass: 6km at 5.4 per cent average, but can you give us a bit of detail there, Andy? What sort of climb are we dealing with? Is it straight? Is it twisting? What’s the surface like?”
Andy Hawes
“I think it’s a bit of everything, really. It’s one of these classic Welsh climbs that goes right up from the valley floor to the top of the valley. The early part of it is sheltered and then, literally, it is climbing up out of that valley, but the way they’ve made the road, it’s literally clinging onto the edge of the hillside. If there’s a headwind, it will absolutely blast down there and force the riders…making sure that really does sap the legs.
luck around, and I’m afraid to say the prevailing wind does look like a majority headwind! That will make what on paper already looks like a reasonably tough climb a little bit tougher.
“But if they have time to look around and take in their surroundings, looking left across the valley, there’s the traditional Welsh waterfall at the head of that valley, so, yeah, it’s stunning, but certainly not an easy one. A couple of little hairpins, a couple of little cattle grids; it’s a climb that has it all.”
Timothy John
“Sixty-five kilometres into the stage, Andy, are you expecting this one to be the decisive climb, or, as mentioned in the press release, a series of punchy climbs in the last ten kilometres. Could that be the sting in the tail?”
Andy Hawes
“It depends how it’s ridden. It’s like any stage of any bike race, it depends how the riders want to ride it. Obviously, it all comes down to teamwork and who gets away and who doesn’t.
who you take with you to do the damage, they could organise themselves to come back.
“If I was a team manager, this is something that I would be looking at and saying, ‘Right. We need to look at the back end of this race, because everybody is going to have tired legs here, but there are a series of rollers, as I say, within the last 20km, where more damage could possibly be done than on the biggest climb of the day.”
Timothy John
“With all that in mind, I guess you’d get pretty long odds on a bunch finish here. To me, it looks as if it’s got reduced group sprint written all over it, or even a solo winner. What do you think?”
Andy Hawes
“Yeah, absolutely at a minimum, a reduced group sprint, but that’s not to say it’s not going to be a solo winner. There is opportunity, and there’s only got to be that lull. We’ve seen it in some of the racing recently: ‘Oh, we’ll just let the go,’ and then, all of a sudden, that gap’s gone out from 15 to 20 seconds to a minute and 15 seconds, and that’s all you’ll need here to roll across the line solo, but I’m probably going to go with a reduced bunch sprint for this stage.”
INTERLUDE
Timothy John
“Let’s move on now to stage two. This is Wrexham to Wrexham; a shorter stage with a little less climbing but still pretty savage: 140.2km with 1570m of climbing. It’s another stagewith two QOMs and one sprint, and it’s another stage that won’t lack beautiful scenery, heading on through Denbighshire, West Cheshire and Chester.
“It starts and finishes in the centre of Wrexham on Chester Street, and then the peloton heads north and enters West Cheshire after 20km. The climbing begins soon after as the route runs alongside the Peckforton Hill range, which is part of the Mid-Cheshire Ridge.
“The route crosses back into Wrexham, via Bangor On Dee and Overton, on into Johnstown for the GPM sprint, in the same location as last year, I think, Andy, close to our Brother Industries facility in that part of the world, but, gosh, the highlight of this stage has got to be Horseshoe Pass, hasn’t it, which sadly slipped from the route last year, so wonderful to see it this year, and the riders will hit that with 30 kilometres to go. Expect massive crowds.
around, building on those established relationships?”
Andy Hawes
“Again, very, very useful. We’ve worked with Wrexham for a number of years. 2015, I think, was one of the first times we finished there. It’s good to work with partners that we have a long-standing relationship with, and, as I said, previously, having an understanding of how this race works is half the battle. Everything become a little bit easier when everybody understands what’s happening.
“This is quite exciting. This stage, as you’ve said, was used in the Tour of Britain last year. Unfortunately, we didn’t get to have the Horseshoe Pass bit in the Tour of Britain last year, but we’ve got it into the Tour of Britain Women’s event.
“The women will be running on exactly the same roads the men used, which is a long-term goal of having parity between the two events. This is the first of the four stages that runs on the same roads. The final stage in Manchester also runs on many, many roads that the men’s race has run on.
“It’s going to be exciting. Cheshire West and Chester is an area that’s fantastic for bike riding. There’s lane after lane after lane which is just right for bike riding and just ripe for exploring. For the ease of our ten- week planning period, we’ve run out with as much of the route as we had in September.
“It’s going to be exciting. We’ve got the two QOMs. The sprint location is in the same place as it was in September, but we have the addition of the Horseshoe Pass. While it’s not a super difficult climb, it’s a long one, by the time they get to the top with a little over 20km to the finish…
“Again, it’s not a straightforward finish. There are a couple of little kickers that fall within the last 15km. There are a few narrow lanes with sharp left and right turns, so anyone who’s going to be focussing on this stage for the win, they’ve got to be switched on. You’ve got to be at the head of the peloton and really driving the race, and having looked at the road book and VeloViewer to ensure they really understand it because by no means is it a straight forward, drag strop run to the finish in Wrexham.”
Timothy John
“A technical finale after Horseshoe Pass. Is this another one, Andy, that breakaway artists will have ringed in red on their calendar?”
Andy Hawes
“I think it’s possible, you know, I genuinely do, because there are plenty of little lanes in the dying kilometres that place you out of sight and out of mind: pin your ears back and you’re gone.
“In the last 3km, yes, it’s a reasonably untechnical run in, so if you get to 3km to go and you’ve got a good gap, I think you’re going to stand a very good chance of staying away, because it’s maybe the ten to 15km prior to that that’s really going to make the difference on this stage.
"It’s certainly not a gimme from the top. It’s not, 'Right, we’re at the top, now down to the finish.’ It’s certainly not that. There are some big, wide roads to navigate that then go into some narrower roads: as I say, twisty and turny.
“There are a couple of little kickers where VeloViewer actually goes red, which is quite good, in the dying kilometres, so, yeah, it’s going to be an interesting one."
INTERLUDE
Timothy John
"There are a number of riders, Andy, who will be striking you from their Christmas card list, I'm absolutely certain!
“Any sprinter still in the race by stage three will breathe, well, something of a sigh of relief. This is a stage that begins and ends in front of Warrington Town Hall. It follows an anti-clockwise route, heading south. It crosses the River Mersey and the Great Manchester Canal, on past Walton Hall and Gardens and then into Cheshire West and Chester. The route ramps up from the 25km mark in preparation for the day’s two QOM points.
"The first of those comes at Broken Cross after a 5.6km climb up from Peckshill Road. The peloton then descends into Prestbury with the Pennine foothills in sight. The second QOM at Pott Shrigley, which I have looked at on VeloViewer, and it looks absolutely savage, in the foothills of the Peak District, and a couple of further kickers, just for good measure, in Mottram Saint Andrew, then on through Knutsford to Mere and the GPM point. Then a short, sharp descent from Appleton Thorn which should set the peloton on a fast, flat run back into Warrington.
“I started by talking about sprinters, Andy, and then spent the next two minutes talking about climbs, so who exactly does this stage suit?”
Andy Hawes
“This stage is absolutely a sprinter’s stage. We looked at this stage right at the very beginning and thought, ‘Right, The run in to Warrington is complex, in terms of traffic management and shutting it down and making it safe.’
design a stage so we could get as much of the peloton as possible into Warrington in one big hit.
“After they’ve been through Mottram St Andrew, they drop down through Alderley. Edge, through Knutsford, have the sprint point of the day, and then it is a relatively straight-forward, almost downhill, flat run in to the finish in Warrington.
for the sprinters’ teams. The roads are wide, they’re going to be able to organise themselves and then drop off their sprinters with just a couple of hundred meters to go.”
INTERLUDE
Timothy John
“Let’s get onto the finale now: stage four. This begins outside the National Cycling Centre, very much on home turf for British Cycling, and then takes a route through Greater Manchester and out into the wilds before ending in Leigh.
“This is yet another route with two QOM points and one GPM. The race, as we say, starts outside the National Cycling Centre, and follows an anti-clockwise route across the AshtonCanal, then North East to Oldham and towards the first QOM after 23km: this is a climb in the Pennines from Delph to Grains Bar.
“The rolling route then continues through Shaw and Rochdale. A fast descent though Edenfield leads to the second QOM: the “short but formidable” Ramsbottom Rake. We’ve seen that a couple of times over the years, and, of course, that will be etched painfully into the memory of the hill climb community.
“So, Andy, tell us about this one. This is a comparatively short stage, but, purely from my own observations, at the recent Giro d’Italia, the shorter stages, the first three stages were short by Grand Tour standards and were thrilling, so what type of finale could this induce? Will this appeal to teams who have yet to get anything out of the race? Is this teams with victory in sight going all-in to seal the deal? What type of appeal does a short stage on the final day offer?”
Andy Hawes
“The parcours of this route lends itself to everything you’ve just said there. It lends itself to the team that wants to control the race to the finish. It lends itself to breakaway specialists who maybe want to get away and have a lone victory. It also lends itself to the teams that haven’t done anything until this point in the race.
“Right though, from the beginning to, maybe, twenty kilometres to go, it’s either up or it’s down, and there are some big ups and downs. We only categorised two of the climbs, as you mentioned - Grains Bar and The Rake - but there are plenty of other ups and downs on this stage that can make the difference.
underestimated. It’s going to be full gas from the word go.
“As you say, from previous experience, and having watched the Giro quite intently for three weeks, it is the shorter stages that sometimes give the most excitement, because they’re unpredictable. The unpredictability of this stage means that if you’re not constantly at the front monitoring what’s happening, you could miss that break, you could miss that major split and find yourself on the wrong side of it.
“On the top of some of the climbs is very open and exposed moorland. We could see some echelons forming. We could see just about anything, and I guess across all four stages, looking at how our summer has been so far this year, if we gat away with four dry stages, it’s going to be fantastic, but on current forecasts, it’s very similar to what we’ve been looking at. The wind and the rain are going to play a part on all four stages, and none more so than on this stage.
their team together and look to launch off a sprinter for the finish.
“It’s very hard to say what this stage is going to do. The Tour of Britain Men has been over these roads on two occasions now, and it’s ended in a sprint both times, but there has been a lot more flat run in to the finish when we finished on Deansgate, so this one is a bit of an unknown. I would go with a reduced bunch sprint for this one.
"I know the noise and spectators as we’ve been up through The Rake at Ramsbottom have been fantastic and knowing that he final stage is on a Sunday again, and the support we’ve had on the two previous editions of this stage has been phenomenal, so, whatever happens, they are going to have such a warm welcome, and it will be a very fitting final stage.”
Timothy John
“Those images from previous races up the Ramsbottom Rake are quintessential images of British road racing, and, as you say, huge crowds.
of Britain in 2019, but can you give us a sense of the logistical and administrative challenge in taking a race out from the National Cycling Centre?”
Andy Hawes
“I think anybody who looks at a map of Manchester will see just how urban Manchester is and how far you have to go out before there is a bit of colour in a map that isn’t a very densely populated area. Just for an example, we’re going on one of the major roads that feeds into Oldham, the A627, which in turn feeds onto the A62, but to make the race happen and to make it as safe as possible, we’re actually committing off-side this dual carriageway, the A627, to then drop onto the A62 off-side dual carriageway, to travel along and then turn off to stay off-side of another dual carriageway before we cut across.
“So, in the first five or six kilometres of that stage, I would say four of those kilometres are off-side on dual carriageway systems on the main roads heading into Oldham. These are the kind of technical challenges we’ve had to look at so we can get the race to move in the direction we want it to go to. It ticks the boxes of the local authorities for the areas they want the race to visit. Also, believe it or not, taking the race off-side on a dual carriageway speeds up the process for shutting the roads down and reopening them quickly.
That’s all within the first six kilometres of that stage!
“A lot goes into it. It is taken turn by turn and junction by junction. By shutting ‘x’ road here, what effect does it have on ‘y’ and ‘z’ roads over here? Are we causing ourselves a bottle neck and putting ourselves into a metaphorical cul-de-sac, as it were? Dealing with all the local authorities is good because all they want to see is the success of the race in their area, but because their areas all butt against each other, you know that every single metre of those roads are covered and everybody understands what it is that we’re trying to achieve.”
INTERLUDE
Timothy John
“Let’s zoom out now and consider this race in context. There is so much good will behind it. People really understand, I think, just how valuable the Tours of Britain, whether it’s men’s, whether it’s women’s, are to the health of British cycle sport more generally.
the sense that there’s a tailwind behind you? That there is that sense of good will; this willingness that this event will be a success?”
Andy Hawes
“Yes, absolutely. We, from the very outset, when we started having the conversations ten weeks ago, we said: ‘We’re going to make this happen.’ We’ve got people around us who can make this happen and a collective will of people that have a can-do attitude. It’s not been without bumps along the way as you can imagine, but we’re sat here with a little over a week before the event is due to start and everything is falling into place nicely.
allowed it to happen and be as smooth as you can make a project like this being delivered within ten weeks.”
Timothy John
“One of those people with a can-do attitude is the Race Director, Rod Ellingworth. That set the tone for this whole endeavour, I think, although Rod comes from a different area of the sport, as a coach, as the general manager of a WorldTour team; the man behind Project Rainbow, of course. This is his first time as a race director, I think, but, my goodness, what authority in the sport, what experience. How has it been working with Rod?”
Andy Hawes
“Yeah. Listen, it’s been fantastic. I’ve known Rod for a number of years. Obviously, our paths have crossed throughout his time at INEOS Grenadiers and my time as Route Director of the Tour of Britain. Our paths have crossed on numerous occasions. Working with Rod is fantastic, just for his enthusiasm and his passion for getting this event across the line.
on Rod’s suggestion. It’s nice to have his input and understanding.
“There’s no question of his experience, where he’s been and what he’s done before this, but it is also a learning curve for Rod as his first time as a race director, and it’s been nice to be there and be by his side and impart all the knowledge and experience that I’ve leaned over the last 12 or 14 years doing what I do. So, yeah, it’s been a great experience. Rod really is a massive part of this whole process. He has been alongside us for the whole process as well. He has been there beside us with unwavering support.
“I think we’re all excited about getting the race underway and seeing what we can do, but not just the Tour of Britain Women,. The Tour of Britain Men is in September this year, and, as you say, Lloyds have come on board, which hopefully opens up a bit of longevity and safety for the events. Maybe we can now look at how we can develop both of these events as well and maybe turn them both on their heads and do something different.
partnership, hopefully.”
Timothy John
“I’m sure he’d say exactly the same about you, Andy. You mentioned that you’re glad to have him by your side, and I’m sure he finds your experience equally valuable, and you’re not the only person on this squad with valuable experience of putting on big races: Mark Leyland, the start director, Paul Knight, the finish director. These must be people that you’ve worked alongside for many years.”
Andy Hawes
“Yeah, I’ve worked alongside Mark literally since I started my journey. Mark’s been with us since 2010. He had a couple of years hiatus when he went to work on the Commonwealth Games and also the Worlds. It’s not like he stepped out of the sport. He just stepped into different areas, so Mark brings a wealth of support.
“And Paul. We’ve worked with Paul since 2014, I think, or 2015, so another….Paul brings to this not just experience of being the finish director, but Paul was the transport and logistics director at SweetSpot so he brings a wealth of experience from having run those roles.
“So, yeah, I think between the three of us, we’ve got most posts covered, and it’s been great working with those guys again. Like old times, almost.”
Timothy John
“Do you feel how high the stakes are here? There’s a lot riding on this, isn’t there? I mentioned earlier that it’s a beacon for British cycle sport in general, really. Do you feel that pressure or are you kind of immune from it being buried in the detail, in the nuts and bolts?”
Andy Hawes
“I think, yeah, deep down obviously we know the pressure is there. We know the stakes that are involved with making sure this is right, and we know that with Lloyds coming on in partnership now, that’s increased that a little bit.
“But we're confident. We’ve delivered many events before, between all of us. We’ve tried to keep the formulas as simple and as straight forwards as they have been in the past, so that everybody who is along with us on this journey, quite a lot of people within cycling haven’t delivered an event of this size before. Everybody's learning, and we’re here to help and be the glue to bind everything together and makes sure it happens.
good of these events. It doesn’t just fall on the shoulders of a handful of people. It’s a big group effort and everybody pulls together to make sure that this event is a success.
“There are many moving parts, but there are also many moving people to it as well who ensure that this event happens. It’s going to be good to get to the HQ hotel in a week’s time and re-acquaint ourselves with people who we haven’t seen since September or even longer, but to know that everybody is there for the success of the event is comforting.”
Timothy John
“Andy, thanks very much for your time today. I’ve spent the best part of an hour now, I think, talking about how busy you are, while wasting your time talking about how busy you are!
“Very much appreciated and wishing you all the luck in the world for the Tour of Britain Women.”
Andy Hawes
“Thanks, Timothy. It’s been a pleasure."
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Phil Jones
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